God, Sex, and the Bible: An Interview with Dr. Rocco Errico
(page 2)
You said that sexual phobia, or fear of the erotic, is prevalent, because the erotic speaks of feelings. And we suppress feelings in this culture. What is the root of eroti-phobia?
The root of eroti-phobia is the fear of the body itself. Because of the natural energies, forces, feelings, and powers that run through our bodies, we naturally have a strong aversion to it, fearing that they are going to get out of control. In our particular culture here in the States, we're in for control. That's our strong, habitual inclination. We like control over everything, not just our bodily feelings. We like control over mostly everything, other people, people's beliefs, people's way of living. It's got to be a certain way. And we're in for control in that. Even government is not free of that, because government is run by human beings. And human beings here in our own country have that control thing. We've got to control it. And that's why we keep making more laws, and more laws, and more laws, and more laws. And the problem with that is, as the Chinese say, the more laws you have, the more lawless you become.
Instead of trying to understand the energies of our bodies, and work with them, we fight them, suppress them, and attempt to control them. But suppression brings on the reign of terror that does come from the body.
So how would you suggest people relate to the body and sexuality?
Understand their sensuality, what it is in them, in particular, and how they can find appropriate expressions for their drives and energies.
Also, we must disentangle healthy erotic sexuality from violent, abusive sexuality. The more we disconnect from our bodies, the more violent we become. In order to violate you, I have to violate myself first. The more love and respect I have for my body, the less violent we become. Also, making women objects makes men objects.
Does the Bible condemn sexual activity for non-procreative purposes?
Absolutely not. The Bible actually teaches, and Jewish interpretation is, sexual activity is for two reasons: One, for procreation; Two, for companionship. This is how they teach it, for companionship as well as for procreation. Both are important. This is what they reason: If sexual relationship, or intercourse, is repulsive, then the sexual organs are repulsive, and God doesn't make anything repulsive.
If you do really good research, not just surface research, but really in-depth research and you check the ancient writers, not the modern writers, I'm talking about the ancient Jewish writers, and if you check in the Talmud and all the other writings, there are many, many works on that. They show that the Hebrew Bible itself was never against sexuality for recreation, as well as procreation. The ancient writers and authorities felt that the ideal state for a human being was marriage, and the sexual activity between the couple. This is what the Bible teaches. And it says so, even in the Scriptures. Judaism at the time of Jesus held the view that the more sexual you are, the more spiritual you are.
What about the New Testament?
The New Testament as well. There is no anti-sensuality in the New Testament.
Other religions at that time were involved with idol worship. They worshiped idols along with sensuality. For instance, to stir the men up, they would have the statues of naked women; and to stir the women up, they would have the statues of naked men, showing the full, erotic power of the body, both for the male and the female. And then they would worship the body.
It is in Paul’s letters that we find a lot of the anti-sexual material and not in Jesus' teachings, but in Paul's letters. Because the churches that were guided by him were clashing with these other religions that were involved in idol worship and the erotic.
This is where the negative comes in. We've got to remember that Paul's letters are just what they are, epistles, letters. He did not know we were going to take his letters, put them with the Gospels and with the Hebrew Bible, and call his writings the word of God! It would be like I'm writing to someone who's asking for some help. And I'm giving them the knowledge that I have that is appropriate for that time. And all of a sudden, someone takes my letter and puts it in with the Bible! That's what has happened. And it would become God's word! And you know how I would feel? Awful! I'm sure Paul feels that way today! But we don't know. [Laughs.] But this is what happened.
For instance, Paul was even against women becoming ministers. That's anti-female. The moment you cut women off from being ministers or being able to administer the teachings or the spiritual energy, what have we gotten? We become anti-female.
But they're basing it solely on Paul. Paul says that women should keep silent in the church, because he is saying something that has to do with the culture of the time! Women couldn't get up and speak, because they would have had to unveil. And the men would be staring at them; because most women would veil their faces. And if they were to learn anything, they would learn it from the men at their home, or from their mothers or grandmothers. It was passed down, by word of mouth, by the family, rather than in church. But that was cultural.
Again, Paul had no idea that we were going to take his writings and make them the word of God, make them edicts coming directly from God's mouth! This is where we make a mistake. For instance, I get many letters. Sometimes, when I am talking about the good things that the writers in the Bible have given us, I still get letters from certain feminists, who just jump down my throat. And they're quoting all these different things. They're doing the same thing with the Scriptures. These feminists are doing the same identical thing that the people who are against women are doing. They're taking certain Scriptures, not knowing its full cultural background and they're slamming it.
But, it's because of misunderstanding. I'm not faulting anyone. It's strictly because we didn't know. Now we have access to this understanding. Years ago, I was called into a university at Lubbock, to lecture on women and the Bible, and anti-feminism. I did a whole college program just on that, to show what was cultural, and that it was not an edict from God. This is what our problem with the Scriptures is. We make every single thing written between the lids of that book, an edict and a special word from God which is our mistake.
Well, this leads to the next question. Was Mary a virgin, as we know the term? I'm sure you get that one a lot.
Oh yes, I do. And, you see, the word "virgin" is not there in the Hebrew Scripture. In the Hebrew Scripture, it uses the world "alma," "Ha alma" is what they say, which is a young maiden. That's in Isaiah, the 7th chapter, the 14th verse. When it comes to the New Testament, it does use the word "virgin." And Joseph did marry a virgin girl. You have to marry a virgin girl. Otherwise, the dowry would not be good. They always paid a dowry for their women, through a matchmaker, or through the parents. They make this agreement; and then they have to show the tokens of virginity after the first evening that they've been together. And the reason why that's there, was to protect the woman. Because if the man decides he didn't like her, he could accuse her of not being a virgin, and kick her out. But as long as that could be proven with the tokens of virginity from that first night, she is protected. The tokens of virginity was to protect the women.
The Scripture says that Mary was a virgin. It would be natural; we're talking about the New Testament now. We're talking about the Gospel of Matthew.
So, the real question is whether she was still a virgin after she conceived Jesus? Was it an "Immaculate Conception?"
Course Quote: Now, the virgin birth story didn't appear until the 60's to 70's A.D. Jesus is known as the Son of God by the resurrection, not by birth. Only in the Gospel of Matthew is it inferred that there was no man involved in Jesus's conception. The angel speaking to Mary really means, "Hi, Mary. I've got news for you. God is blessing you with child." Women of that time would often go off and seek a vision when wanting to be pregnant, so any such woman would be happy to get this message. "He will be called 'son of the highest.'" This meant, when she is with a man, she'll get pregnant. The Gospel of John says Joseph was Jesus' father.
The Hebrew people believe it takes three: God, the man, and the woman. And it says then the Holy Spirit came upon Mary. But then again, there are other places that talk about Joseph being his father. Like in the Gospel of John, it says Joseph was his father.
So a huge cultural concept, though, is built around this idea of her being a virgin.
Yes, but, well, all women had to be virgins at that time in history.
And you mentioned the Holy Ghost. What is its power? What is the Holy Ghost's power in the sacred, sexual union?
Near Easterners always believed that with sexual activity, there was always three involved. You have to understand the ancient belief. They actually believed the man planted the seed. They didn't understand the role the woman played at all, the way we understand it today, because of our sciences. They believed that the woman was like a garden, and that the man planted the seed. But it takes God or the Spirit to grow it, to bring it to fruition.
Yes, of course. So, now, back to the virgin issue.
Okay, now you see, what we're getting into, when we get into the virgin issue and the New Testament, and the Gospel of Matthew, we're getting into theological areas.
Well, it has a huge cultural impact. For example, Oprah Winfrey quotes recent studies that say that more than 40 million women in America no longer want to have sex with their husbands. Now, many of these women claim to have had good sex lives for year before having children. A good percentage of the women who have lost their desire to have sex with their husbands, feel that it's because once they had children, their image of how they should be as a mother, that sort of Virgin Mary image, is in conflict with being a great lover.
It's too late, though! [Laughs.]
Right. But they pick up a cultural notion that they should be this virginal role model for their children. So they find it difficult to have desire for their husbands, and be the sexual lover they once were.
Ah, but I think that comes from our cultural notions that sex is a little bit unclean. Those notions, that sexual activity is unclean, comes from Scripture, the Hebrew Bible, because at that time, they had to go through certain purification laws. This is our culture. Really, it comes from a misperception and a misunderstanding of what sexual activity is. See, people don't understand that the sexual act itself is the sharing between two people of their spiritual, soulish, fleshy energies.
Can you say a little more about that?
We only think one way, fleshy. But it's soul participation, and it's spirit participation. There are actual energies that pass back and forth between each other. And it is healthy, for both the male and the female who are involved in this activity. We're talking about females right now. It is healthy for them, for their hormones and for everything else; and for the caressing and time of intimacy. To me, the root of fearing the sex act is a fear of intimacy.
Well, one could say, that a lot of men want to have sex but they have a fear of intimacy.
Absolutely. Men have that too.
Back to your talk about spirit. I was struck when, in a previous conversation, you said that our sexuality is not a gateway to the Divine; it is Divine. What do you see is the distinction?
Well, when we think of it as a gateway, we think, "I've got to pass through this door." But, you see, I don't pass through any door; I am the door.
So, that means my sexual gender is the spiritual, I prefer the word "spiritual," rather than "Divine," because when I think of Divine, I think of mythology. And, whereas, to me, when I do use the word "Divine," I think of it more as our spiritual nature. And that's something we're born with; not something that, all of a sudden, I'm going to find a doorway to it.
2 of 3 Next page...
